Deeper Dive: A Conservator’s Visit to Van Gogh’s Asylum

Download the PDF

Announcer: This is a Getty podcast.

[Theme music begins]

Lilit Sadoyan: Hi, I'm Lilit Sadoyan, the host of OMMM: Our Museum Mindfulness Meditation podcast, Getty’s first video podcast. Welcome to this deeper dive, where we explore the themes of our weekly episodes with experts in everything from paintings conservation to mountain climbing.

Devi Ormond: I just felt like I had been transported back in 130 years ago into the body of this enorm—you know, incredibly talented artist.

Sadoyan: This week, we did a sensory awareness meditation focused on Vincent van Gogh’s Irises. I spoke with Getty conservator Devi Ormond about her experiences studying this work and her trip to the asylum where Van Gogh painted it. Now let’s dive in.

Devi, could you please tell us briefly about what you do as a conservator?

Ormond: Yes, as a conservator, um, we have the absolute privilege of being able to touch art. We—Our job essentially is to take care of the artwork so that it can be appreciated for generations to come, which involves sometimes treating that painting, and in order to treat the painting, we need to understand the materials on the painting and really to understand the artist, how he painted it.

So that all sort of encompasses what a conservator does. So there’s that element of research and practical work as well.

Sadoyan: And sometimes you don’t just look at a painting, but you can also see through it, right?

Ormond: Absolutely. There’s so many techniques that we can use that allow us to really, really deep dive, deep, deep down, beyond, right through, [Sadayan laughs] and it’s amazing what technology is doing nowadays, that’s helping us identify certain materials that artists were using.

So it’s an exciting time.

Sadoyan: In the meditation for this week, we focused on sensory awareness inspired by Irises by Vincent van Gogh, or Vincent van Gogh as his name is [pronounced] in Dutch. In this episode, we are diving deeper into what it means to be present. Devi, you had the great privilege of visiting the St. Paul Asylum in Saint-Rémy-de-Provence, where Vincent van Gogh spent time and where he painted Irises. What brought you there?

Ormond: Very good question. Something that was very teeny tiny, would you believe it? Something that we found in the paint of Irises. Uh, we weren’t quite sure what it was, whether it was an insect or perhaps something to do with plant material.

But we were curious about it. We had the wonderful opportunity to study Irises very closely, along with the scientist and curator, really examining every square inch of the painting. And we came across a small little piece of plant material, we thought, and we decided to pursue it. And thank goodness that we did, because it was that small little piece of plant material that brought us to the garden.

I was given the contact details of the current director of the clinic now in Saint-Paul-de-Mausole in Saint-Rémy, Dr. Boulon, and I phoned him up and I asked if I could speak to the gardener because I was very interested in the garden that Van Gogh painted. And he said that the garden hadn’t changed in hundreds of years, and that I should come and find out for myself what this plant material would be. So that was definitely an invitation I could not say no to.

Sadoyan: [laughs] Definitely not. And what was the plant material? What did you discover?

Ormond: Oh, so when, when we got there, first of all, we were just struck by this—this overwhelming sense of tranquility, you know, once we got behind these tall walls. And when you look down at the ground, these tiny little pollen cones were everywhere. And the pollen cones come from the umbrella pine tree, which is indigenous to that part of the country. And these tiny little brown pollen cones were everywhere, very fragile, and they looked exactly like what we were finding in the paint. So there was a wonderful moment where I’m actually down on the ground with an enlarged image of this plant material that we found and sort of comparing what I’m seeing on the ground with what we saw in the painting.

And it was a real sense of, um—yeah, he, this is where he painted it. So we got a really acute sense of location, which felt very, very intimate.

Sadoyan: Incredible. And you mentioned you were able to get down low to the ground. Were you also able to find or identify a similar patch of irises while there?

Ormond: Yes, and I think that’s, again, one of the most extraordinary things, and it really came from Vincent van Gogh himself. He wrote in his letter to his brother Theo that the day after he arrived, he started painting two paintings. One was called The Lilac Bush, and the other is called Irises.

The I—The Lilac Bush painting is currently in St. Petersburg, and it depicts a sort of a mound of, uh, yeah, I could call it a mound, and there’s lilac trees coming out in sort of full bloom in pink, and then at the base of this mound, you see a sort of a little patch of purple irises, and that is something that we saw in—in one of the corners of the garden.

And you—again, you’re just, it’s like quite extraordinary that, you know, here he was actually painting what he saw and not what he felt but what was in front of him. And then to be able to sort of look down on the ground and see that how he painted what I originally thought was, was, you know, either soil or, um, some sort of dirt material on the ground, but in fact, it’s dead leaves.

And to be able to see that and kind of reevaluate how I had seen the painting before was just extraordinary. And then sort of to be down there on that level and looking up at these beautiful irises and seeing how the light changes in the petals, the different greens on the leaves, you know, those lovely, those lovely little yellow flowers in the background of the painting, you could see those, and it just all began to make sense that here he was painting what he saw, not what he imagined. He was actually in that garden, more than likely sitting in that spot.

So that was… God, it, it was, it was really overwhelming, and it’s hard to find the word to describe. I just felt like I had been transported back in 130 years ago into the—the body of, of this enorm—you know, incredibly talented artist.

Sadoyan: Wow, that sounds fascinating. And, you know, just to imagine that your embodied experience really informed your understanding of the painting, deepened your understanding of the artist, too. What would you say the artist or an artist gains from painting outdoors, from being physically present in a landscape while they’re trying to capture it on canvas?

Ormond: Well, I think, you know, you’re talking about sensory experiences, and I think one of the things that we can’t capture in painting is that sense of sound or smell. And sitting in that garden, you know, you have the wind blowing, you have it blowing through the leaves of the irises, so you get this incredible movement that he captures so beautifully.

You hear the birds singing. You—you smell the flora and the fauna. And it’s not just being in a studio smelling turpentine or oils from the paint. You know, you’re, you’re out in the open, in the fresh air.

And nature gave Vincent such solace. You know, he, what he had gone through in the months prior to coming to the asylum were extraordinarily frightening for him, and you get this sense that he feels invigorated and necessary and that he does belong. He does belong, and this is where he belongs.

So again, there’s that sense of, of hope that really just emanates from the painting. And vitality and, you know, appreciation of beauty and, and, uh, the smells and the sounds, everything that was encompassing him as he was painting this. And I think that's something that you miss, and it’s something that I had, again, the privilege to experience sitting there myself.

I don’t know if that was the case for Vincent or any artist that paints outside, but that’s certainly how I was feeling when I was there.

Sadoyan: Beautiful. I mean, it sounds like you were physically being present in the, the same places where Van Gogh lived and worked really left an impact on you.

Ormond: It’s being in the environment in which this masterpiece was painted more than likely sitting in the same area as he was 130 years ago, listening to the birds, the wind, the mistral wind, it was the season, so it was also a little bit chilly, um, through the trees, through the leaves.

It, it just was a moment of real calm. And you know they talk about pantheism and religion in nature. You could really get the sense of, of something bigger happening and, and it was all-encompassing.

Sadoyan: Well, it sounds sensational, and I hope that our listeners and viewers have a chance to come and see this spectacular work of art at the Getty, Van Gogh’s Irises.

Devi, thank you so much for sharing your experience with being at the location where Van Gogh was when he painted this work.

Ormond: My absolute pleasure. Thank you, Lilit.

[Theme song begins]

Sadoyan: To find the related meditation and see images, transcripts, and additional resources, visit our website at getty.edu/ommm. That’s oh-em-em-em.

This episode was produced by Zoe Goldman and Gideon Brower. Mixing and sound design by Jaime Roque. Christopher Sprinkle is executive producer.

[Music fades]