Deeper Dive: A Dance Critic on the Less Glamorous Aspects of Ballet

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Announcer: This is a Getty podcast.

[Theme music begins]

Lilit Sadoyan: Hi, I’m Lilit Sadoyan, the host of OMMM, Our Museum Mindfulness Meditation podcast.  Welcome to this Deeper Dive,  where we explore the themes of our weekly episodes with experts in everything from  tea ceremonies to mountain climbing.

Gia Kourlas:  When you get off stage, when you’re not under the lights anymore, things can look a little bit more tawdry or a little bit less perfect or [laughs] fairy princess-like.

Sadoyan: This week, we did a meditation on patience, inspired by Edgar Degas’ pastel titled Waiting. I spoke with New York Times dance critic Gia Kourlas about her impressions of this work and some of the less glamorous aspects of ballet, like all the waiting around. Now let’s dive in.

[On video call] Gia, thank you so much for joining me.

Kourlas:  My pleasure.

Sadoyan: So this week we explored an exquisite pastel drawing by French artist Edgar Degas, and it depicts a ballet dancer and her companion waiting on a bench. And as someone who has experience observing dancers in different environments, I was curious to hear about your impressions of this artwork.

Kourlas:  Right. Um, it seems to me exhaustion is the first thing that comes to mind. A lot of times what you see on stage is—I mean, every time what you see on stage is different than what reality is in the wing of a theater. And so I just think that we’re kind of seeing the real thing in this painting, which is, you know, her hand’s on her ankle, she’s in some pain perhaps, or she’s just exhausted. Like, her legs are so ungraceful. They’re splayed. She looks like a guy on the subway. You know, she doesn’t look like a ballerina. It’s a hard world, the ballet world, and, I think you see that—the toughness of it in the Degas, for sure. Yeah. You see the toil, you see the exhaustion, you see the stress, you see the mental anguish. It’s all there in—

Sadoyan: Yeah. He’s definitely not glamorizing ballet or performance in any respect.

Kourlas: No, he’s not glamorizing ballet, but he’s sort of showing you the truth of it, you know? And, um, the truth of it is the beauty as well, but, you know, I don’t like it when movies and, I don’t know, any kind of media only depicts the stereotypes of ballet, you know? And I don’t think he’s doing that here.

Sadoyan: And, you know, it’s interesting because both figures look quite exhausted. [Kourlas: Right.] They’re both bent over, but the contrast between them couldn’t be any more stark, in terms of their costume, or their mental space, or their personalities. So I was wondering what you thought about that.

Kourlas: I think... It’s funny, I was looking at the—I was looking at it a little bit more closely, and the chaperone person, the woman, she has such a young face. So I’m, like, curious about her. We don’t see the dancer’s face. Right? She’s bent over. We see her costume, which, even though the contrast between the stark black, you know, outfit of the chaperone and the dancer, it’s very different, but I still see that the costume, it—when you get off stage, when you’re not under the lights anymore, things can look a little bit more tawdry or a little bit less perfect or [laughs] fairy princess-like. And so I see the contrast, but, there’s something so real-life going on in it that even though she’s wearing a costume with a bow and, and a skirt…I don’t think the word is drab. There’s nothing—it’s not that they’re both drab, but they’re both a little worn, right? They’re used up. Just like the women are kind of maybe used up. And so I don’t see the beauty of the costume like someone else might. Let’s put it that way. I’ve seen costumes in person, too, and sometimes they’re a little grungy. [laughs] Yeah.

Sadoyan: For someone looking at this, they might see the tutu and this beautiful teal, you know, turquoise bow and think that it looks quite dazzling, but up close maybe that’s not the case.

Kourlas: I don’t know. It's not for me. I mean, I love when you look in closer and you can see the colors that he’s used that are kind of like the red.

Sadoyan: Yes.

Kourlas: And then I think there’s…is there blue on her foot?

Sadoyan: Yeah, along her calf.

Kourlas: Along her calf.

Sadoyan: There’s this beautiful bright indigo, yeah.

Kourlas: And so to me, I love that because it’s sort of like the illusion of the stage and the illusion of, you know, dance as being easy and effortless. And even in this drawing, we’re looking at... We’re not seeing the true picture unless you look very close and you see the colors that he’s used to make certain things stand out. So it’s theater, this drawing, right? [Sadoyan laughs] There’s like a real sense of theater about the use of color, not just position, but color and position together that makes it so emotional in a way. It does make it of the moment. Like you’re in a real tense scene. No matter what’s going on, there seems to be tension. Right? Along with exhaustion. Yeah. I don’t know if she’s waiting to hear for—to see if she got a part or if she’s in the company, or what.

Sadoyan: All of these questions about the work of art, it’s quite puzzling. We don’t, we don’t quite know. But speaking of that, we’ll shift gears a little bit.

Kourlas: Sure.

Sadoyan: I would love to hear about your experience in the art of paying attention when you’re watching dance. What are you tuning into in those moments?

Kourlas: It’s a lot. You have to really be alert, and you can’t look away. I write constantly when I’m watching a performance, even if I’m not reviewing that specific night. It helps me pay attention, and it’s more of a record of what’s going on. I don’t think it’s super helpful to start writing during a performance or thinking about what I’m going to say because [Sadoyan: Right.] then you miss what happens next. So it’s always, it’s a struggle. You know, you feel it’s [laughs] it’s full of tension. You know, but you’re very alive and in the moment. There are things I do to prepare. I think it’s really important for me, not other critics probably, but for me to move in some way before I sit down to watch a performance. [Sadoyan: Wow.] Yeah, so I’m pretty athletic and I run and I swim and I just do Pilates and all this stuff. So I try to, like, do something before I sit down for a couple of hours or an hour. It makes... I think it puts me in touch with the movement that I’m watching, if that makes sense.

Sadoyan: Yeah.

Kourlas: I think it opens my brain in a different way. And then I’m more relaxed too, to really frame what I’m seeing and record it. All of those things.

Sadoyan: I imagine that you’re, especially as an, you know, audience member, I’m paying attention to this, like, the nuance of movement too.

Kourlas: The nuance for sure, and you’re also, you know, you’re focusing so hard because the people around you can be distracting as well. You know, if they’re not paying attention, if they’re pulling out their phones, if they're doing other things. It’s like, it’s a lot of—it’s a lot of paying attention. I’m always looking to see what a choreographer is trying to say and how they’re saying it, if that makes sense. So I understand what they want to do, but are they really doing it? Things like that. With ballet, I’m seeing a lot of ballets that I’ve seen many times before with new casts. And so for me, I’m always looking to see what a new dancer will bring to a role. Most important, you know, is can I see them? Can I see a modern person in an old ballet and how do they make it alive today? Because they have to. You know, it really depends on the choreography. If you’re taking a George Balanchine ballet, that happens all the time because his structure was so strong, and there’s a certain freedom within that structure that lets dancers really be themselves—if they can do the steps, which are hard.

But that’s what makes it exciting, is watching dancers, new dancers, older dancers just, you know, interpret and make it their own. Even though that’s kind of a cliche, but it’s true. It’s true. You know, if I can—I know a lot of dancers and if I can see their personalities in a ballet, that’s good. Not that they’re hamming it up or anything like that, it’s just, it’s not their personality the way they talk, but it’s the way they are. It’s like the spirit of them lives inside choreography.

Sadoyan: That’s so beautiful.

Kourlas: Oh. [laughs] It can be. [both laugh] One hopes. You know, there are a lot of bad performances, too.

Sadoyan: Yeah. And in a sense as an audience member, you’re also kind of, like, embodying that movement, right? You might have a sort of visceral reaction.

Kourlas: Yeah. The visceral reaction you don’t want is fear. Like, can they do it? [laughs] So I don’t like to be afraid. That’s a good thing. That’s a good one to point out. I don’t like to be afraid. Um, I like to let something wash over me. And yeah, that I think there’s an energetic—not to get too woohoo—but there’s some kind of energetic pathway that is between the audience member and what’s on stage. And the best performances create this synergy. And there’s nothing like it. Especially as we don’t see so much live art or much of anything these days. It’s a real exciting experience to be in the theater when that happens. It’s like, I don’t know how to explain it. It’s like going on a rollercoaster. It’s just something out of body. You can’t predict when it’s going to happen, and you can’t force it to happen. Although judging by, sometimes, applause, I think people are forcing it to happen [laughs] because you know it’s not… ’cause they paid for tickets, and I don’t know, they have to feel a certain way. But really truly when it happens, it’s gorgeous. It's worth everything. Sometimes you, you know, something happened and then you’re like, “Did I really see that happen?” And it can be...it doesn’t have to be a huge jump or something virtuosic. It can just be a gesture or a side look or something so invisible, but you felt it and you know you saw it, but what did I see? That kind of thing. I mean, that’s why paying attention’s important. You don’t wanna miss those little details. That’s dancing. Like the in-between steps, I always say, that’s dancing. It’s not the big pirouette sequence or the crazy jump.

Sadoyan: Well, speaking of the in-between, Gia, I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about your experience with waiting, whether you’re waiting to interview a dancer, you’re waiting for a performance to begin, or waiting during intermission. You know, what do you notice in those moments?

Kourlas: About myself?

Sadoyan: Yeah.

Kourlas: Yeah. I mean, I have a problem waiting because I just want to watch the dance. I’m not there for the social aspect [both laugh] in so many ways. I like to just be in the dark watching the dancers. Waiting for me is difficult. Lobbies are difficult. I don’t know who I’ve offended. [both laugh] I try to, you know, be kind of to-myself as much as I can and quiet. Intermissions are another horror for me. They’re just too long and [laughs] sometimes I’m like, “Did you come for the show or for the intermission,” you know? Um, not to judge, but there, there you go, I’m always criticizing everything. So I do practice patience. It’s hard. The problem is too, people want to know what I’ve thought after I’ve seen something, and sometimes I don’t want to say or I just want to think about it more. The minute you tell people what you think or what you express through words, not the written word, what you thought, it just deflates it all. And you can’t quite capture it back again, I think. Yeah. It’s different chatting loosely about things, but it can be a little bit, for me, debilitating. I don’t know. Maybe it’s just me.

Sadoyan: No, it’s me too.

Kourlas: Yeah, I don’t wanna give it all away. I wanna hold it inside, and then process it, and then think, and get it out through writing. Like, I don’t know if you find that, but I think that—often if I’m writing on deadline, I mean, I’m like, “Oh, God, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna say?” And I can say it through writing. It’s like the practice of writing is what helps me express what I thought and what I think it is, and what went right and what went wrong. And so you just don’t wanna talk about it too much. [laughs]

It’s hard to write about dance. Like, it’s hard to put words to movement [Sadoyan: Yeah.] and to describe what is happening through language. So there has to be some kind of, I don’t know, in-between space that you go through too where you have to translate your emotions. That’s kind of what it is for me. And it’s a little unpredictable, I think. Sometimes you just write a sentence and you don’t even know you wrote it, so—

Sadoyan: [both laugh] That’s right. Just comes through your fingertips.

Kourlas: It just comes through your fingertips. It just does. And so. Yeah.

Sadoyan: Yeah. Okay. So you’ve been observing dancers for quite some time. And I’m wondering if there is something that you have observed in dancers, ballet dancers in particular, that relates to waiting that we can take into our regular daily lives.

Kourlas: Okay. Let me think about this.

I think that dancers have to show a lot of patience in everything they do. Like patience with their bodies, even. Perhaps when they’re going through an injury. You know, that’s a really hard thing to go through, to not push yourself too much, so that’s a form of patience and waiting, I think.

And we could all use some of that in terms of, like, listening to our bodies and not pushing too hard, or knowing when to push harder. There’s also, you know, waiting for a role, thinking that you’ve proven yourself and you’re still not there. You know? You’re almost there, but you’re not there, and will you ever get there? And that’s something that everyone goes through, right? At all points of your life, I would think. And then the dancer’s life is short, so that, having patience—it’s hard because they’re on a really fragile timeline, and they can’t wait too long or it will pass them by. So I always think of that when I’m getting impatient, because I think the stakes are higher with dancers than with normal, ordinary people. [both laugh] Pedestrians. Not that dancers aren’t ordinary. Dancers are all, you know, they’re just like us. Even ballet dancers. But especially ballet dancers. They’re just, to be honest with you, smarter. Yeah. The body-mind connection that dancers have, it’s like nothing I’ve ever seen. It’s terrible that dancers are thought of as being dumb or, you know, people wanna make fun of. They’re so intelligent. The humor is so quick, you know. The way they can put ideas and steps into their bodies in, like, a moment’s notice is wild. Their muscle memory, insane. A corps de ballet, like, the way they can measure space and be aware of spatial—the distance between them, the fact that they don’t knock each other over, it’s insane, you know?

[Theme music begins]

Sadoyan: This has been incredibly insightful, Gia. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. [Kourlas laughs] And thank you for joining the podcast.

Kourlas: Thank you so much. It was a lot of fun.

Sadoyan: To find the related meditation and see images, transcripts, and additional resources, visit our website at Getty dot edu slash ommm. That’s O-M-M-M.