Deeper Dive: Chani Nicholas on the Ancient Appeal of Astrology

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Announcer: This is a Getty podcast.

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Lilit Sadoyan: Hi, I’m Lilit Sadoyan, the host of OMMM, Our Museum Mindfulness Meditation podcast.  Welcome to this Deeper Dive, where we explore the themes of our weekly episodes with experts ranging from paintings conservators to dance critics.

Chani Nicholas: It’s one of those things that you think of it, it’s like thousands of years old, it’s come in and out of favor a million times, and I think it always will.

Sadoyan: This week, we meditated on our place in time and space, inspired by a medieval astrological diagram. I spoke with world-renowned astrologer, Chani Nicholas, about the history of astrology and how people use it today. Chani is the author of the book You Were Born For This: Astrology for Radical Self-Acceptance. She hosts the weekly podcast Astrology of the Week Ahead with Chani Nicholas, and runs the CHANI app. Now, let’s dive in.

[On video call]  Hi, Chani. I’m so honored that you’re able to join our podcast today. Thank you so much.

Nicholas: Thanks so much for having me.

Sadoyan: Of course. Our pleasure. Uh, so for our listeners who are new to the field, can you talk a little bit about what astrology is?

Nicholas: Yeah. Astrology is the study of the quality of time that we’re living through. It’s the study of the cyclical nature of time, and it is rooted in our deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep need to know what is going on with the sun and the moon, and how to orient ourselves in time and space.

If you think about our ancient, ancient, ancient ancestors, like way before the written word, way before any kind of thing that we would find in a museum. We have always needed to know how much light there’s gonna be. And so you’ll notice the world over, peoples building seemingly impossible great wonders of the world that line up with astronomical events and happenings and cycles. Many of the temples around the world that are, again, seemingly impossible to have built, especially given the technology that they had at that time—or we don’t even know some of the technologies they had to do the things they did, or we can only assume some of the technologies they had. Yet they did—they erected these incredible things to line up with the moment of the solstice, or to line up with a certain, uh, rising of a planet, or to have some sort of connection to a planetary orbit or a celestial body’s rhythms.

You know, you can take out the kind of spiritual aspect of it, or even a philosophical aspect of it, and just, like, we need it to be rooted in time and space. And of course, in our modern age, we’re very disconnected from the sky. We live in a tremendous amount of light pollution, and of course, like, noise pollution, but—and a lot of distractions where we’re looking down at an illuminated little box in our phones. But in fact, we used to look up a lot at the illumination in the sky. So astrology is an articulation of one of humanity’s oldest relationships, which is with the natural world around us.

Sadoyan: And presumably there have been people throughout time who have kept track of these cycles that you speak of, right? So we have probably millennia’s worth of material that tracks planet, the movement of planetary bodies and, you know, their impact on Earth. So I’m wondering why people from professional astrologers to novices, um, why have people been so fascinated by what’s going on in the sky?

Nicholas: Well, I think partly because of what I just said, partly because it is an ancient orientation, and because it is the nature of a human being to wanna know if there’s meaning behind the chaos. Life is chaotic, and it’s really hard, and it’s painful. And when things happen to us personally, it can help in our struggle to give it a more archetypal context. So human beings are generally searching for some kind of container to hold the things they struggle with in, so that we can gain a little bit of perspective or understand if there’s some meaning to attribute to it. And I’m not here to say that all suffering has a meaning to it or a greater redemptive arc. Some of it, I think, is really just blatant and violent suffering, and there’s a lot of it on the planet, and I don’t look to the planets for all of that.

Sadoyan: Yeah.

Nicholas: But there are some things that are, again, cyclical and developmental, and part of just, like, the human journey that you can find context for inside of a system like astrology that has held that context for thousands of years. So we’re looking for meaning. We’re looking for a place. We’re looking for a guide as well to see, like, where should I go and what should I do? And, you know, astrology and—astrology is not a religion. It is not religion. It’s not therapy, but because astrology and religion have had this interplay throughout thousands of years, there’s this way in which they have kind of like switched the dominance in certain cultures, and throughout time, they kind of like change hands. But we are always looking for a kind of meaning and what to do with this immense human struggle.

Sadoyan: Yeah. How about more recently? I mean, I love what you said about the source of illumination from the phone versus the sky. [both laugh] More recently, how has our understanding and relationship to astrology changed?

Nicholas: I mean, our relationship to astrology changes every time there’s a technological advancement. We expand our understanding of the universe every time technology advances. So whether that is the discovery of Neptune and Uranus and Pluto; whether that’s the discovery of a minor planet like Chiron; whether that’s the discovery of the four asteroids that were discovered pretty much all at the same time, Vesta, Pallas Athena, Juno, and Ceres. We kind of, like, start to add into the astrological paradigm these new planetary bodies, and then of course, there’s like a bajillion asteroids that are just flying around out there. So there’s that piece of it where, like, our astrological system has to then start to, like, make room for these other bodies.

But then—and so that changes the ways in which we’re doing astrology—but then we also have technology helping to proliferate the actual tradition and practice of astrology here on Earth, like the printing press proliferates the horoscope. Like, we create the horoscope, the sun sign horoscope in tandem with, you know, the printing press really, like, doing its thing. And so then astrology can start to spread in a way that it never really had before, depending on, like, what civilization we’re looking at and what time period. But in the time period where the printing press starts to get going, that’s, you know, astrology had been really quiet for a long time, so then it comes back.

And then, you know, we can look at the ’60s, and we can look at the ways in which astrology started to, like, again, spread like wildfire through musicals, on pop culture, and “hey, what’s your sign?”, and that kind of thing. It’s a little less related to technology, but still probably through the advent of, like, people buying records, and people playing, you know, like, really kind of having a different relationship to music. And also, like, Linda Goodman’s Sun Signs book, and all of that started to really take root in people’s conscious awareness. And then you look at social media, and social media is, like, you know, astrology just everywhere. And astrology had always been used by capitalism. You know, astrology columns have been in magazines, again, since the printing press.

And so, it’s been there, and it’s always been really popular, but you know, with the advent of—the internet did a certain thing, too. And, you know, when I was growing up, people tried to teach us how to, you know, make an astrology chart by hand, by mathematics, of which I was never good at. And then at, you know, when I was coming into the field, like when I was a teenager, I had to send away to somebody who had, like, a computer program and a printer. I had to send them the birth times that I wanted, and pay for them, and they would, like, two weeks later I’d get their birth chart.

Sadoyan: Wow.

Nicholas: And so, and then, you know, all of a sudden I could pull a birth chart online by myself, and then, you know, then there’s smartphones, and then it’s just like... And then COVID comes, and then TikTok comes, and then everyone’s sitting at home learning astrology—or a lot of people are—and then it just explodes. Like, it’s one of those things that if you think of, it’s like thousands of years old. It’s come in and out of favor a million times, and I think it always will. Like, I think it’ll go out of favor again, and it’ll come back in again, if we continue life on this planet. [laughs]

Sadoyan: Yeah. [laughs]

Nicholas: But it does have that, it has that relationship with humans and with technologies, whatever technologies we’re using, whether it’s the cuneiform tablet, the papyrus, the, you know, newspaper, TV, stage, screen, whatever.

Sadoyan: And even apps, right?

Nicholas: Yeah. Well, definitely apps.

Sadoyan: And for our podcast episode this week, we discussed a 15th-century German manuscript that has the different days of the week, the signs that are associated with them, what kinds of activities that one would engage in during different times of day. And so I wonder if we could talk a little bit about this in particular, and I would love to get your take on this period, um, how you understand this, and specifically, why do we associate certain signs with different days of the week?

Nicholas: So there’s an order of the speed of the planets, and so the classical planets, right? And I’m talking planetary bodies, because obviously the sun and moon aren’t planets. They’re—one’s the sun, one’s the moon. But we call them all planets. So, considering the relative speed of all of the planets, they’re always in an order, and that order has–is how we structure the planetary hours in a day.

And so every day, and depends on what language we’re looking at, but they’re either named after—they’re either named after, like in French, it’s like literally named after the planet, the days of the week. In English, they’re named after gods that are associated with the planets that are connected to that day of the week. And so each day of the week is said to be good for something that’s connected to the planet that rules it. And then within that day, every hour, there’s a planet that rules that hour. And so the day of the week, say we’re looking at Sunday, is the sun’s day. And the first hour of Sunday will be ruled by the sun, and then it will go in order from there, and it’ll just keep repeating.

And so this is the thing about astrology, and is in a lot of ways, it’s a—you can see things as like a fractal kind of system, right? There’s this like, okay, Sunday rules the sun. And then within that, we break it up into hours, and you’ll find the sun’s hour in the sun’s day, which will be really good for sun-things. And sun-things are vitality, sun-things are healing. The sun was thought to be part of the divine mind. The sun is that generative life force, right? So we wanna do things. We wanna wear gold. We wanna, you know, light a yellow candle. We wanna do things that are reflective of the sun to invoke the sun’s spirit.

And so the planetary days and the planetary hours are used for different purposes, but we can think of them as ways to align ourselves with the property of the day and the time that we are in. Or if you wanted to make like a magical amulet, or you wanted to start a project, you could pick the day that is ruled by the planet that rules the type of activity that you want to do, and then if you double down and pick the planetary hour that’s also a part of that, that further imbues that thing with that property, right? Because magic and magical practices are always about aligning ourselves with the thing we’re wanting to create more of.

Sadoyan: Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like there’s, um, a great deal of awareness of being in sync with planetary and zodiacal cycles. There’s this really keen awareness of how to live one’s life according to those to, like you said, make the most of the moment or find an auspicious moment in time.

Nicholas: Yeah, and I even know, like, astrologers that will... ’Cause you can have, like, the—I have a planetary, you know, the planetary hours. Like, you can just go in on a website now and just get whatever it is. So right now we’re in Jupiter’s day. So Jupiter’s day is gonna be good for matters of justice and fairness and also like creating some kind of openness or harmony or goodness. But we’re also in Mars’s hour. And so I was looking at it and I was like, oh, it’s too bad we didn’t start a little bit earlier ’cause we could have got Jupiter’s hour and Jupiter’s day. [both laugh] Because Jupiter is the planet of—he’s also the teacher, right? So it’s like, it has that vibe to it. So we have an overall feeling of Jupiter-ness, of wisdom, and of teaching, and of also creating goodness and expansion.

But I know astrologers that will have the software just running, and they’ll just like every once in a while look up and be like, "Oh, interesting," like "it just crossed over into a Venus hour, and my partner texted me," or, you know, like there’s connections. And so you can, I think, you know, it’s very in the weeds, to be honest, for a lot of people. I don’t look at planetary days and hours that much. I’ll notice them, but it’s not like I am obsessed with them. But I know astrologers that are, and I think it’s a—it’s a really beautiful and very, like, obsessive way almost of like… [laughs] [Sadoyan: Yeah!] but that is magic. You know, magic, you are being very particular, you’re being very specific, and you’re being very intentional.

Sadoyan: It seems to me like the manuscript is the medieval equivalent of that, right? It’s like, this is what’s best at this time of day, on this day of the week—

Nicholas: Yeah, it’s a prescription. Yes, yes. And also, you know, there’s different ways you use astrology, right? Like, you can pull your own chart. You can also go to an astrologer and ask a question, and if you ask me a question, then there’s a chart for that question, and then I look at the chart for the answer to your question. And I can look at the planetary day and hour of which you asked me that question, and that will give me a level of information.

Sadoyan: You have been referencing charts. Can you please talk a little bit about what a birth chart is?

Nicholas: Yeah, it is that. It is like, okay, someone’s born at this time, at this location, what’s happening in the sky? And so it is a exact kind of replica of where all of the planets and the angles, I could say, like the mathematical equations of the highest point and the lowest point, and the horizon is in the sky. And so we lay that out on a piece of paper, which is, you know, flattening the cosmos. [laughs] So it’s like an interpretation of how the—everything was oriented in the cosmos as it appears to us here on Earth. And then from that, we create an understanding, or we try to—I always say, and this is kind of like a convoluted thing to say, but it’s really important not to read into the chart. It’s really important to read out of it, and that’s a concept that I got from an acting teacher, or many acting teachers. You know, like acting teachers will always say, “Don’t read into the script”. Like, don’t read into the character. Stop projecting all of your own assumptions into this character. Read out of it. What is it, you know, like how is it coming out instead of being like always putting your ideas into everything?

And so when I say read, don’t read into—let the chart come to you, it’s like really looking at it from a perspective of, well, what’s the condition? Like, what is the condition of this planet? How fast was it moving? Was it visible? Would it have been visible within seven days of the person’s birth? What place is it in? Does it like that place? Does it struggle in that place? Like, what is it trying to tell you, instead of this more kind of modern, pop culture approach of assuming you understand something about the nature of somebody’s astrology or that moment because somebody in your past did something that was horrible to you, and they had the same sun sign. [laughs]

Like, there’s actual calculations, and each thing in the chart is this really kind of like complicated equation that we have to work out, and then once we get all of that in order, then we can see, okay, well, what’s the potential of this landscape? And then you have to be like, okay, well, then that person has to choose how they’re gonna use it, and what they’re gonna do with it, and how they’re going to work with the tools they’ve been given and with the circumstances that they’re in. I don’t know if that answers your question.

Sadoyan: Yeah, it does, and it has me thinking about, you know, it has me thinking about how someone can use their birth chart to find meaning in their life, or to align with their life’s purpose.

Nicholas: Yeah, I think it’s really important. We, in our app, in the CHANI app, we try to really focus on your rising sign and the planet that rules your rising sign, and the location of your sun and your moon.

I have a book, it’s called You Were Born For This: The Astrology of Radical Self-Acceptance, and that’s what that book is about. Because that is the entry point. That’s not everything, but if you don’t get that piece, then I think we’re kind of just, like, a little lost. And we might bump into things that are meaningful, and like, “oh yeah, that sounds like me,” but it’s not actually gonna give us the domain that we’re in.

The planet that’s connected to the rising sign, which is the sign that is rising up over the eastern horizon in the location that you were born, the moment that you were born. Very specific, fast-moving—you know, the sky is always moving, so that sign is always changing every couple hours, but the degree of that sign is really important as well. And so that sign has a planet that’s connected to it.

Sadoyan: Right.

Nicholas: And that planet is gonna tell you something essential about the nature of the direction you need to go in in this lifetime. And the quality of that planet, the function of that planet, is gonna tell you something very specific about the function of your life. And if we don’t start there, then I don’t...like, that’s that whole, if you just get one thing, that’s what I want you to get. Yes, your sun and moon are wildly important. They’re the luminaries. They’re literally the places of life in a chart. The sun is your essential self, your divine mind, the spark of life, your vitality. The moon is your body, your history, your lineage. A lot of people say, like, emotional life, your sense of security. So the sun is like the soul and the moon is like the body that holds that spirit. And so, without sun and moon in the chart, we don’t have a person. And so where they are is also so immense and important.

But if we don’t understand the quality of the rising sign, that is to say the moment you said yes to being here, the moment you became your own person, the moment the body that you were incubated in, you know, expels you and you go out into the world on your own, that’s what the rising sign tells us the motivation for living your life. And then the planet that rules that is like, and then we go here. That's the first through line that we want to get, at the same time as understanding the sun and moon and what they’re doing and how they’re working. So if you just understand, honestly—I know a lot of people get a lot of confirmation from the kind of personality traits of the signs, that their sun and moon and rising sign is, and that’s great. But it’s not gonna give you necessarily direction. And what’s going to give you direction is understanding where those things are. Where is your sun? Where is your moon? Where is the ruler of your ascendant? Those are gonna give you the literal locations that you need to be in. And then who else is there, who’s influencing it, and, you know, all the things that that means. But, you know, the barrier to entry is, it can be significant, so if you just start really simply with those things, you’ll get a lot of direction in a really practical way, I think.

Sadoyan: In so much as astrology is a mirror of what is happening down here on Earth, is there such a thing as being out of phase with the cosmological order?

Nicholas: Out of phase…like out of sync?

Sadoyan: Yeah, like we’re talking so much about being in alignment with your purpose or your, you know, the ruler of your ascendant sign, and what—

Nicholas: Yeah, I think, like, you know, that’s the game of capitalism.

Sadoyan: —what’s the opposite?

Nicholas: The opposite is capitalism. [laughs] The opposite is be so distracted by all of these ways in which corporations wanna make you feel insecure, that you never listen to yourself, so that you never spend time in a museum looking at art and contemplating history, so that you never think about the meaning of your desires and what they might be telling you. Then you’re out of sync. And the astrology chart’s something that can, like, you know, snap you back into awareness again. It can wake you up and remind you of, like, wait a minute, that’s—why do I have this desire? Is that my desire? Or is that what the world is telling me is the thing, the ultimate thing, to achieve? Like, why do women spend the majority of their life energy wondering if they’re too fat. Or if they’re looking too old, or if they’re attractive enough. Well, that’s just by design. That’s just a distraction. So if you’re, you know, overwhelmed by feelings and desires that you’re like, "Have I ever questioned if these are mine?" And they’re not making you happy, and they’re not...you’re not feeling like you’re getting somewhere deep and wonderful and transformative in your life. Then it’s time to question, like, where is this coming from? Is this me? Or is this the air, the soup, the, you know, that I’m swimming in?

Sadoyan: Yeah. It really brings you back to the here and now.

Nicholas: Yeah. Or something needs to. Whether that’s astrology or not is, you know, only you can know that, but anything you can do to take the gaze from looking out to looking in. Not at your navel. [laughs] But just, like, to attune yourself to something deeper that’s happening in you.

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Sadoyan: Chani, this has been incredibly informative. So if people wanna learn more, where can they find you?

Nicholas: Yeah, you can find me on my app, CHANI, the CHANI app, C-H-A-N-I. You can also find me online. Chronically, I am there, unfortunately. [laughs] But I’m on Instagram and TikTok and Threads and Bluesky, mainly. And also, we have a blog. We have a website. It’s Chani dot com, and there's tons of really helpful articles that our team writes all the time there to help you understand your life, your chart, its potential, and what to do with it.

Sadoyan: For sure. I can vouch for the app. Life-changing. [Nicholas laughs] Thank you so, so much.

Nicholas: Thank you so much for having me.

Sadoyan: Thank you, Chani.

Nicholas: Yeah.

Sadoyan: To find the related meditation and see images, transcripts, and additional resources, visit our website at getty dot edu slash ommm. That’s O-M-M-M.