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Re: [teacherartexchange] College level/public school dichotomy

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From: Diane Gregory (dianegregory2_at_TeacherArtExchange)
Date: Wed Jun 20 2007 - 21:56:47 PDT


I would welcome being held accountable to the same
high standards as lawyers, doctors, engineers,
architects, etc. With that, I would expect to be paid
on par with other professionals. :-)

Yes I have wondered if other professions chew each
other up inside and out, like we do in Education. We
get so much criticize, it is understandable that
people will blame each other. I suspect the health
care crisis has changed Medicine a great deal.

--- Ann Heineman <aiheineman@prodigy.net> wrote:

>
> Hi Patty,
> No need to apologize. I was just adding fuel for
> thought to this
> great discussion. It sure has brought out
> passionate viewpoints! I
> admire you and Diane for thinking about art
> education training in
> your respective positions as collegiate education
> professionals. I
> have a few further thoughts:
> 1. Collaboration. Between college departments.
> Students take classes
> with students in other departments. Really mix it
> up! The
> Renaissance with the Italian, Math Departments, etc.
> 2. Liberal Arts. Students have a wide variety of
> courses in
> sciences, arts, history, geography, language arts,
> foreign language
> and linguistics, psychology, math, human
> development. Be able to
> attend classes with pre-law, pre-med students, for
> example, and vice
> versa. Students are all general education--no one
> knows you are a
> dog (in reference to that great cartoon depicting a
> dog at the
> computer--the punch line is "On the Internet nobody
> knows you are a
> dog.")
> 3. Lots of "clinical" experience--or in doc talk
> "Rounds." Do you
> think a medical student earning an M.D. knows
> everything about medicine?
> But they are expected to cover, and pass, all the
> basics in medical
> school so they know where their specific interests
> may be. But they
> still get that M.D.! (But I wonder if they have to
> tolerate those
> "methods courses" imposed on the education student.)
> Likewise, after
> thorough training in college course work and in the
> school "clinics,"
> a teacher who has passed muster in the art and skill
> of imparting
> wisdom to children and adults of all ages deserves a
> K-12
> certificate. Specialization can come with extra
> training and
> experience.
> 4. I wonder if we, as members of the professional
> field of
> education, are the only ones who face criticism from
> within and
> without about our career preparation and
> certification. Maybe we
> should ask folks in other professions how they deal
> with this. I
> think Colleges of Education should be held to the
> same high standards
> as those for other professional post graduate
> programs, like
> medicine, law, engineering, architecture.
>
>
> > I'm sorry Ann
> > my intention was never to suggest that elementary
> is inferior ---
> > God, never.
> > I believe that elementary is just as you say
> >>> There is nothing inferior about a basement that
> is is built on
> >>> good solid ground. It is a "calling" and
> deserves respect and
> >>> admiration for the great teachers who dedicate
> their lives to
> >>> working with the wee ones, under the most insane
> conditions.
> >
> > I understand fully that in many places art
> teachers must travel
> > between all grade levels, either because of size
> of districts or
> > size of budgets. I think the K-12 certification is
> based on old
> > notions -- and that old notion is that the art
> teacher is not a
> > real teacher and that all the phys ed teacher does
> is throw out the
> > ball. We have real standards now to be met. I
> think it is very hard
> > in a 4 year program to achieve the content to meet
> those standards
> > at all levels. Art teachers are expected to teach
> everything
> > because the cert is K-12. The core subjects are
> not K-12 certified.
> > Shouldn't we expect the same kind of attention to
> the needs at
> > grade levels?
> > High school programs are becoming more and more
> specialized. I have
> > elementary teachers terrified that I will call
> them up to teach a
> > photo course.
> >
> > Am I wrong to think most of us know which level we
> really want to
> > teach to? which age we best relate to? I know
> many accept
> > positions they really don't feel most comfortable
> with just to have
> > job? I want those that want to be elementary to be
> that and be the
> > best at that and the same for high school.
> >
> > I have only admiration for those that take on the
> little ones and I
> > know plenty of art teachers that take on this
> awesome task.
> >
> > Guess it goes both ways Ann, because I know a lot
> of elementary
> > teachers that think we have it easy in high
> school.
> >
> > The suggestion was not that anybody is any better
> on any level. The
> > suggestion was to make the choice of level the
> best it can be
> > without spreading content too thinly. I just
> went through a
> > massive AP Studio Art course syllabus audit. The
> rumor I'm
> > hearing is that maybe, sometime in the future, the
> AP board will
> > require that anyone teaching an AP course must
> have a Masters in
> > the content area. How many art teachers have
> MFA's?
> >
> > I think it it unreasonable to expect, that
> because you are
> > certified K-12 you can do anything in art. How
> many times do we
> > hear from people on this list that are suddenly
> told they have to
> > teach something and they have to scramble to
> figure it out???
> >
> > No offense was ever intended. I only want to make
> art in the public
> > schools respected for what it is and that every
> one who devotes to
> > the art program be the best and not have to deal
> with these issues
> > of judging.
> >
> >
> > Patty
> >
> > On Jun 19, 2007, at 7:52 PM, Ann Heineman wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> I think maybe it's time we divided the
> certification---
> >>> elementary and high school.
> >>
> >> Why? And where do you put in middle/junior
> high? (On any given
> >> day they can change from age 4 to 30 and back. )
> Won't this
> >> separation make art teachers with elementary
> certification be
> >> further profiled as "inferior?" I spent 35
> awesome years teaching
> >> at the elementary level, K-6, and I often wished
> I could scream at
> >> administrators, university professors, state
> education department
> >> know-it-alls and colleagues (UP at the
> secondary) who referred to
> >> the elementary level as "DOWN." And as an
> elementary art teacher
> >> I was reminded of the fact that I was not a REAL
> teacher. Take
> >> that BFA, MFA, PhD and BEFORE anyone gets a K-12
> certificate, the
> >> applicant has to teach kindergarten and primary
> grades art for at
> >> least 3 years! There is nothing inferior about
> a basement that
> >> is is built on good solid ground. It is a
> "calling" and deserves
> >> respect and admiration for the great teachers who
> dedicate their
> >> lives to working with the wee ones, under the
> most insane
> >> conditions. And yes, I did produce, and still
> can, a body of work
> >> in my field of printmaking. So my life as an
> educator was not
> >> spent as a "cut and paste loser." I did not "end
> up" as an
> >> elementary school art teacher because I was too
> stupid to be a
> >> secondary art teacher. I chose that level, and I
> would do it
> >> again, despite all the arrogant crap that gets
> hurled at teachers
> >> who are in elementary schools.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ann-on-y-mouse in Columbus
> >> Art teacher, K-5, retired
> >> PS I was a cooperating teacher to over 30
> student teachers from
> >> OSU. The experience was very rewarding for me
> and my students,
> >> and I had opportunities to work with the art
> education department
> >> professors in formulating courses that were
> meaningful to future
> >> teachers and teachers
> >> out in the field.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
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Dr. Diane C. Gregory
Associate Professor of Art Education
Director, Undergraduate & Graduate
Studies in Art Education
Department of Visual Arts
Texas Woman's University
Denton, TX 76204
dianegregory2@verizon.net
dgregory@mail.twu.edu

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