Note: To protect the privacy of our members, e-mail addresses have been removed from the archived messages. As a result, some links may be broken.
Re: 19th & 20th C. Artists Who Have Infuenced American Culture
[ Thread ][ Subject ][ Author ][ Date ]wendy sauls
Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:33:02
>Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:44:49
>To: Robert Alexander Fromme <rfromme>
>From: wendy sauls <wsauls>
>Subject: Re: 19th & 20th C. Artists Who Have Infuenced American Culture
>At 08:19 PM 2/14/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>Even our field of art education has to involve ethics.
>If you are accusing me of being unethical, i think it would be braver to
do so openly instead of hinting at it. Some think its pretty unethical to
perpetuate the lie that only certain types of art by certain groups of
people are worth considering as important.
>>Are you trying to fabricate your own version of history in order to fit a
>I think everyone, to some extent, fabricates there own version of art
history, or any history, for that matter. Yes, i do have a personal agenda
which i think i openly stated. i, for one, am disturbed when students can
list famous artists like leonardo and piccasso but know of no female or non
>Katherine's short and selective list and your statement,
>>which follows, would suggest that this may be the case. You wrote:
>> " i think it is high time for inclusion, and to help young people realize
>>white guys whose stuff is in museums aren't the only ones who've been making
>>important art all this time. you are very, very correct in saying "the
>>list" should be longer, and more feminine and colorful and diverse! also,
>>what's marginal to me, or you, may be very influential to someone else.
>>surely the students who select an artist will be able to explain how their
>>choice was influential."
>Aside from the fact that you fabricated a quote and attributed it to me
>all i intended to attribute to you was the part where you said the list
should be longer. i'm sorry if my quotation marks were misplaced; i'm not
sure my email utilities are capable of supporting footnotes, but maybe i
should consider this for future correspondence?
>>("""the list" should be longer, and more feminine and colorful and
>>diverse!"), it would seem that we in art education have an obligation to
>>seek and provide a balanced assortment of representatives when we find
>>ourselves in a situation, like Katherine, who was asked for:
>> "names of 19th or 20th century artists who have had the greatest influence
>>on the American culture."
>> Katherine asked for our suggestions, "opinions, " and I provided my
>>reaction to her list. I was concerned that the majority of her selections
>>were taken from the latter part of the requested time period, 19th or 20th,
>>and the list was not very inclusive. I felt that it needed to be much
>>longer. According to your agenda, your response to my suggestions included
>>the statement " i think it is high time for inclusion" and failed to offer a
>>single additional name to Katherine's list.
>i don't recall Katherine claiming her list was complete; she just made
some suggestions. just so you know, i had sent a private email list of my
own with many artists names, which i clarified as just a start.
>>Although you conveniently omitted the entire version of my response to
>>Katherine's list, I said:
>i did this to shorten the lenght of the post; i was responding only to
certain parts of your message. i think this is a fairly common practice -
i'm sorry if i offended by not repeating (again) your viewpoint.
>>"you will do well to look to the artists of Europe in the 1800s and early
>>1900s. The inclusion of DuChamp and Picasso in your list seems to demand
>>the additions of the Bauhaus, the other Dada, the Surrealists, the
>>Impressionists, the Post-Impressionists etc. These artists provided the
>>influence, the seeds, for many of the late 20th Cent. folks on your list."
>>If your understanding of the history, and art history, is not sufficient to
>>make sense of this statement, I will try to elaborate
>> To understand artists like Marcel DuChamp, Picasso, and Pollock, one must
>>understand how WWI and WWII had shaken traditional faith in, and reliance
>>upon, Europe's classical reason as a primary force in the evolution of
>>Western culture. DuChamp was only one of many male "AND FEMALE" creative
>>individuals involved in Dada which, among other things, searched for an
>>alternative to the methods of traditional western/classical rational
>>thought. The combined exploration of the group, not simply DuChamp, led to
>>the development of directions which were to influence Surrealism, Cubism,
>>Expressionism, Abstract Expressionism, and the assortment of Conceptual or
>>"Idea Art" activities which interested Lucy Lippard late in our century If
>>Katherine's list included Critics and Historians like Lucy Lippard and
>>Whitney Chadwick at the expense of other artists, perhaps it should have
>>included an infamous "white guy" and second rate artist by the name for
>>Adolf Hitler for unfortunately his is one of the "names of 19th or 20th
>>century artists who has had the greatest influence on the American culture."
>>(I.e. the war effort, women working outside the home, the G.I Bill, the
>>Cold War, the Space Race, etc. etc. )
>> To understand the contribution of individuals other then Frank Lloyd
>>Wright, one would do well to research some of the many male "AND FEMALE"
>>crafts persons and artists from Art Nouveau, the many male "AND FEMALE"
>>artists, designers and architects of the Bauhaus. Their ideas can be traced
>>from war-torn Europe to Chicago, California and numerous other parts of our
>>country. Their influence is all around us, in package design, clothing,
>>home appliances, furniture, buildings, city planning, cars, airplanes,
>>computers and space vehicles.
>> Katherine's list, included the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago
>>and the Armory Show. However, my reaction to their inclusion in the list
>>at the expense of the individual artists who were represented in those
>>exhibitions, ( the artists of Impressionism, Post Impressionism,
>>Expressionism, Cubism, etc,) was prompted by the reality that a seventh
>>grade term paper topic works best when it limits the child in that age range
>>to a manageable body of information and research. When I saw the
>>exhibitions listed as a term paper topic and the majority of the artists of
>>the exhibitions omitted from the list, I was concerned that the child who
>>took those two topics would be overwhelmed in the task of trying to deal
>>with such a diverse body of influences at the same time.
>bob, i really think you are missing the point and almost sound like one of
those angry white males we hear about!
>>At 06:05 PM 2/14/98, you wrote:
>>>At 02:28 AM 2/14/98 -0600, Robert Alexander Fromme wrote:
>>>>Please consider a couple additional concerns before you settle upon the
>>>>1. Historians suggest that Abstract Expressionism in the 1940s marked the
>>>>first major American movement and prior to that time the majority of the
>>>>influences and chances were taking place in Europe.
>>>>2. Are you sure that Lucy Lippard, Jacob Lawrence, Joseph Cornell, Miriam
>>>>Shapiro,Whitney Chadwick, Norman Rockwell, Laurie Anderson have had the
>>>>greatest influence on American culture? For some of us, they would seem
>>>>marginal, at best.
>>>>Well, good luck with your list making project. Seems like it could be a
>>>>lot longer, at least.
>>>using your intro, "historians suggest...", historians like whitney chadwick
>>>suggest that there has been an intentional marginalization of artists like
>>>many of those mentioned by katherine, by the powers that be, or powers that
>>>were, in the artworld (european/american white males). i think it is high
>>>time for inclusion, and to help young people realize white guys whose stuff
>>>is in museums aren't the only ones who've been making important art all
>>>this time. you are very, very correct in saying "the list" should be
>>>longer, and more feminine and colorful and diverse! also, what's marginal
>>>to me, or you, may be very influential to someone else. surely the
>>>students who select an artist will be able to explain how their choice was
>>>Art Teacher, Kanapaha Middle School, Gainesville, FL
>>>Doctoral Student, Art Education, Florida State University
>>Robert Fromme <rfromme> or <rfromme>
Art Teacher, Kanapaha Middle School, Gainesville, FL
Doctoral Student, Art Education, Florida State University